Podcast Transcript on substack | Video on Youtube
My guest today is Petra Salarić.
Petra Salarić is a multiple award-winning researcher, designer, an activist, and a founder of pstaboo, the first consultancy in the world that specializes in taboos.
Petra has worked for almost 10 years in different areas of design and art — from graphic design to scenography, and across 3 continents before specializing in the area of taboos.
Petra’s framework of working on taboo topics is currently the only existing framework that guides how to deal with taboos in projects.
With her work, Petra aims to create space and the opportunity for people to talk about taboos we usually do not get to talk about, in order to be able to deal with these issues, take control, and achieve our full potential. Petra has collaborated with a number of NGOs, taught in universities, shared her work at conferences, and created a number of projects around the world. Petra is an activist and runs the only existing online abortion support group in Croatia. She is currently finishing her PhD at Loughborough University, UK.
In this episode, we talk about:
- UX design, especially in the context of Online Intimacy
- Taboos: what they are, why, and how to work with them
- And more broadly, Petra’s unique perspective
Here are my takeaways on Petra’s design work and her approach to Taboos:
Design
Petra talked about the variety of intentions. People can buy the same product with dozens of different intentions. Even if there are just a few human needs at the core, these needs manifest in different stories. It is important to understand the specific stories and needs driving individuals as it informs the specific solution people would benefit from.
Asking why is essential, and asking several times until you get to the root. Petra reported that it only takes 3–5 minutes extra (per individual) and that most organizations do not invest the time, although good/deep research is most of the design work. From the right questions and listening, most of the design choices are made (Petra spoke about just 5% left to reflect on after customers have answered everything for you).
Beyond the work of the researcher and designer, It is essential for people to understand how they behave, and what their true needs are and get their freedom through this self-discovery process. Do you know what you really need?
Linked questions: how do we build experiences that help people live their best lives? And how do we create safeguards so they don’t fall too low? The safeguards mitigate the risk of reverting to negative patterns. For example, if we take a creative retreat,
- Best life: We help people channel their energy into their creative projects, we help them challenge themselves and nourish their work with fresh insights
- Safeguards: We have options for people who can’t stand the modalities we use, for people challenged emotionally, for people who want to talk when it is time to be in silence, etc.
Petra shared the framework she has been engaging dating apps on. It has 4 elements:
- User: How users are creating their profiles.
- Environment: How users experience the platform, how it looks/sounds/feels like…
- Interaction: How people interact with each other, what is enabled for them to communicate. What kind of relationship do you empower?
- Time: How the long-term experience looks like: how you help users build intimacy over time. how often you are allowed to talk to new people.
In each area, Petra shares concerns from research as well as the key success factors for users to be satisfied. The framework supports research, design, and evaluation.
We talked about the difficulty to offer/promise/sell well-being or creativity. Because it means different things to different people, because it is abstract and means nothing until you discover an individual’s context and intention… “What do you want?” is what’s needed (the 3–5 minutes of discovery). Without the discovery, creativity and well-being are empty. Discovery time on a 1:1 basis or for a group, giving them the time to connect to their intentions before talking about a solution.
Petra said that the best is not to talk about it and let people experience it. For noesun, maybe the key is to talk about creative retreat and leave well-being out until people come on-site and see what happens within them. Not talking about well-being offers the benefit of not creating expectations.
Taboos
Taboo comes from oceanic languages (Polynesia) and came into the Western world through James Cook’s discoveries in the 1780s. It means “marked” and “sacred” to the Polynesians. It came to Europe at a moment when things were either explained by science, explained by religion, or they were magic/taboo. What could not be explained by the dominating forces was silenced, avoided, and left in the shadows.
A root of taboo is an inability to explain. This inability can come from the lack of accepted explanation or from not daring to seek it: faith, trust, obedience, laziness, fear… For instance, we talked about practices we do not know the root of (it has always been done that way, we do it for someone, for some cultural rule…), seeking to shed light on these practices.
Is it possible that there is no taboo in an organization? Not finding taboos is not a sign of better health for an organization. Maybe there is a lack of awareness or a lack of diversity. Or maybe there is a taboo about taboos ;)
Challenging taboos bears a cost. It might be a look, people might change the way they’ll act with you in the future, it might be legal punishment… What is the emotional, financial, relational, and societal cost of the taboo you want to challenge? Are you fine paying that price?
Taboo work takes time, and because it challenges a part of you, because it is about swimming against your own current and your environment/community, it is emotionally taxing, exhausting. Is it the right topic to prioritize your energy on? One thing is for certain, you can’t always be fighting taboo, it is OK to turn a blind eye sometimes and recharge your batteries.
Why deal with taboos? Because they’re signposts indicating what needs work in order for you to progress (personally and as an organization). Taboos are powerful elements:
- They contain loads of energy: they’re interesting, catch our attention, and trigger change.
- They keep us apart because they get in the way, they prevent information from flowing and people from connecting because of these unsaid truths
At the same time, they’re also beautiful ways to
- Come together when we process them. We feel more connected when we deal with Taboo together.
- Show each other trust by talking about taboos. (I know I won’t pay a high cost because I trust you so I tell you or I am willing to take that risk because you matter to me)
How taboos are dealt with gives information about the culture of an organization/community. Are we evolving? Learning and changing? Or are we stuck? The point is to create a culture where you know that you can say things if you feel that you need to do it (psychological safety).
Because taboo work is emotionally taxing and contains a lot of potential energy, it can create a lot of damage if the approach is not calibrated and tested with the group you’re doing it with. Indeed you might alienate or hurt people. Petra shared some of her techniques in order to work on taboos safely.
More broadly, when introducing people to personal development opportunities:
- Don’t push. Don’t give them materials when they just mentioned a topic. Do not preach. When they’re ready, they’ll come.
- Just say “I have this space for you if you ever want to use it” Whatever questions you might want to ask, I will be happy to reflect with you.
- Lead by example: I am dealing with this and this and this: today my struggle is about …
- Give it time. Transformative learning takes time, and even if taboo is a shock therapy. They will need time to integrate, they will go back to their life, come back to you, go back, come back, etc.
A practice for you: Taboo diary: one a day, and how to deal with that taboo.
I will close with a personal reflection. What if taboos were good? Talking gets in the way of transformation, sometimes silence is necessary for embodiment, for depth. More importantly, sometimes, we want to be one-sided and be all in one particular energy, in these moments, let’s NOT talk about the other energies, we do not negate their existence, we just decide to make them taboo now, as long as we all know and agree on the why.
Examples where “taboo” can be useful:
- A tantra exercise where you’d want to embody a particular energy (and only this energy) for a few hours: for instance, you want to manifest a particular vision.
- During a religious ceremony, you are here to embody your faith, not to discuss the different views, there is a time and place for each part of the process.
- You have spent the past 2 weeks analyzing a problem and coming up with solutions. The team did not agree on one way forward and some of the team members had to disagree and commit in order to launch the project. Now the team comes to the stage at the offsite in order to present the solution. This performance is about inspiring the rest of the company to join and implement the project. While the disagreement will be presented and integrated, the team presents as one with joint inspiration. It is not the time to relive as a larger group the struggle the team went through. We want genuine positive energy to bring everyone together.
- One last example is in the work after this presentation. The team has presented to the whole organization, now it is time for the organization to deliver as one, push in that direction. We can agree as a team to close that box and reopen it in 6 months.
Not sure these are taboos but it feels like even taboos can be integrated.
Resources:
Whitney Wolfe Herd’s Interview
